A Life in the Dharma –  Ven. Thubten Chodron

Speaker 1 00:00:02 Welcome to the inner craft podcast. This podcast is about meditation and awakening from the lenses of diverse wisdom traditions. Here, we host teachers and practitioners who have devoted their lives to rigorous and extensive training. Our goal is to provide you with nuggets of wisdom that may help deepen your practice and bring more of it into daily life. My name is Andrea VSO. I am co-founder of aircraft, an online platform for in depth and personal life meditation training. And I’ll be your host in this episode. In this episode, I’m speaking with vulnerable top 10 children Sheda as a Buddhist nun 40 years ago. And since then has been studying, practicing and teaching Tibetan Buddhist, seeing the importance and necessity of a monastery for Westerners training in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, she funded and is the, of Shati a Buddhi monastic community in Washington state. She has also published many books on Buddhist philosophy and meditation in multiple languages. And has co-authored a book with his follows that in this conversation, we talk about, better about children’s journey, her teaching method purview, and when one is ready to teach the Dharma qualities to look for in a teacher, the practical application of rebirth similarities among Buddhist traditions, purview, tantric practice, and more
Speaker 1 00:01:37 Now without further ado, venerable two 10 children, hello, vulnerable children. Welcome to the aircraft podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Thank
Speaker 2 00:01:51 You.
Speaker 1 00:01:54 I already shared with the listeners a little bit about your background, but we would love to know more about your journey prior to becoming a nun and becoming a Buddhist. I’m wondering what, what motivated you to do such a thing, especially in those times, I think you were pretty young in your early twenties, if I’m not, not mistaken. So I’m wondering yeah. Why, why you did that.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 okay. Yeah. That’s what my parents said too. Like what are you doing? But, uh, yeah, so as a child, I was always very curious and, uh, I was raised Jewish. So, uh, although my family was not very religious, so I grew up with some kind of sensitivity to, um, to suffering and injustice and so on. So when the Vietnam war came along, uh, and I was in high school, um, during part of it, it really affected me. And so I was wondering a lot, like what’s the purpose of my life and if, uh, yeah, what’s the purpose of my life. I don’t, you know, and I was trying to understand the world because people were saying, well, we’re fighting this war in order to live in peace. And I said, but that’s that doesn’t work. You don’t kill each other so you can live peacefully.
Speaker 2 00:03:31 That’s not how you go about it. And, uh, you know, I didn’t really resonate so much with the idea of a creator. God and I explored Christianity a a bit, but didn’t resonate with that either. So I, but I had these questions about the meaning of my life and is it just to duplicate my parents’ life? You know, you go to school, you get married, you have kids, uh, then they grow up and they have kids and you have your career and you advance in your career and then you retire and then you die. And is that there is to life. And is that how I wanted to spend my life? Uh, I wasn’t, it didn’t seem real appealing to me. , you know, I really wanted something that was quite, that was meaningful and I didn’t know what actually would give meaning to my life.
Speaker 2 00:04:36 So this kind of questioning, uh, continued when I went to college and the exploration, you know, but I think by the time I went to college, I didn’t believe in God anymore. That just, it had never re you know, it got to a point where I, I just couldn’t, uh, accept, accept that. So, uh, during college, I pretty much did what most of the kids did in the sixties and seventies. Mm-hmm okay. And, uh, you know, lived in that culture, asked these questions, didn’t receive any really good answers. I, in, in talking about the meaning of life, it, I knew it had something to do with helping others. That part was clear, but what exactly it was, I had no idea, but, and then I, I, uh, so I started working after grad college graduation. I went to UCLA, I wound up getting my degree in history, which, uh, you know, taught me something about human beings, which was really helpful.
Speaker 2 00:05:58 Um, but I got a job in a, uh, an innovative school right after I graduated and I worked there for a year. And so, uh, education really seemed to me to, to be quite important in terms of making a positive contribution. But after, uh, a, a year of, of working, I quit and went to, uh, Europe and traveled around Western Europe, Eastern Europe, which in those days was, you know, not so many people did cuz the iron curtain was still there. Um, and then we went across Africa, north Africa and uh, wound up going to Israel and then from Israel, went to Turkey and then went Overland in India to India. So this was in 1972. Yeah. And we went Overland to India and uh, 72, maybe it was 73. Anyway, mm-hmm around that time. Uh, cuz I could have gone to graduate school, but I wanted to learn about life from living at not from studying it in a book. Yeah. So that’s why I just, you know, I went over land to India and what’s interesting is the furthest place we got to was a little village in Nepal, which years later when I met my, one of my first Dharma teachers, that was the village where he was born.
Speaker 2 00:07:45 Interesting coincidence. Anyway, when we ran out of money, then went back to the us and I uh, went back to graduate school in education mm-hmm . And then I, I was working as a teacher and that summer there was, uh, I saw flyer about a meditation course. I had never meditated before. Didn’t know what it was about. I had gone, I lived in LA at that time. So I had gone to maybe two or three kind of different spiritual groups for one time each, but none of them did anything for me. Mm-hmm anyway, I saw this flyer at a bookstore about a Bud’s co uh, course, uh, retreat that was taught by tu Lama. And since I was working as a teacher, uh, I was didn’t have to go to work in the summer. So, uh, I decided to go to this course and one of it was taught by Che and their approach, uh, was one I really liked because they started out with you don’t have to believe anything.
Speaker 2 00:09:06 We say. And I was, that was really important to me cuz I was so tired by that time of people telling me what the truth was that I just didn’t want anybody forcing me to believe something and especially threatening me if I didn’t believe it, that I was going to hell or who knows what. So, uh, so they said, you know, you’re intelligent people, you listen, you put it into practice. If it helps you good. If it doesn’t leave it. Yeah. Think about it. If it makes sense. Good. If it doesn’t make sense, leave it. So I like that approach so much. And then when I started listening to the teachings, I found that what they talked about really helped me to make sense of my life. Okay. And uh, in a way that I, I never expected, I had never, nobody had ever really, uh, for example, uh, explain to me about rebirth and about karma.
Speaker 2 00:10:18 About when I heard about these in that, uh, course, it was like, oh, this makes sense. You know, why was I born? Who I was and not born as somebody else. Yeah. And so, uh, that approach really made sense to me. And also when I followed the meditations, like the meditations to counteract anger and jealousy and, and you know, greed and so on, uh, I found that when I contemplated them, they really helped me and they worked. So by the end, when I came back from that course, uh, I wanted to go to they where they had a monastery in Nepal. Uh, because in those days there weren’t very many Buddhist centers in, you know, in the west. So I packed my bags again, that autumn and I went to, uh, Coon in at some monastery outside of Kaman.
Speaker 2 00:11:29 And uh, you know, it is quite interesting because I, I knew very early that I wanted to Orain. Yeah. And what’s strange about it is if I was, um, how old was I? I was 25 when I met the Dharma. If somebody had told me even like a year or two earlier that I would be celibate and I would be a nun. I would’ve told them they were out of their mind. I would never do that. Mm-hmm but uh, life happens often in ways that we didn’t expect. So, uh, I went to, to the monastery in the, uh, autumn of, of 75 and there I was a lay person at that time. And so there were more teachings, which I attended. So there were teachings and meditation and, and as I did more practice, I decided I wanted to Orain. So, uh, and so in terms, well, in terms of your question, why did I become a Buddhist?
Speaker 2 00:12:40 It was because it made sense. And because when I practiced it, it helped me, um, become a better person mm-hmm and work with my own disturbing emotions. Why did I become a nun? Because I felt those previous two things were very important and I should devote my, my life to them. And, uh, also, especially at that time, I was really seeing how my ethical conduct was not completely in line. In other words, when politicians lied, that was awful when they were corrupt terrible. When I lied, it was to protect people. So I didn’t hurt their feelings. My lies were okay. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So I really, oh, I’m holding a double standard. This uh, is not so good. I need to, uh, you know, do something about mm-hmm the state of my mind and about my behavior. So that was, uh, another big motivating mm-hmm factor for me.
Speaker 2 00:13:59 And I think one of the, the, uh, parts of Buddhism that really spoke very strongly was the idea of Bodhi Cheeta of the aspiration to become a Buddha for the benefit of, of all living beings and the way to cultivate the love and compassion that led up to that. Because as a kid, I always heard love th neighbor as th myself, you know, mm-hmm and, uh, you know, all this kind of stuff and be nice to other people. But when I looked at the adults around me, I didn’t see any adults that loved their neighbors as themselves. Right. You know, and there was nobody to teach me how to do it because the whole culture is make a name for yourself. Be somebody look out for yourself first. And so there was nobody to, to either teach, well, how, how do I get over my anger?
Speaker 2 00:15:01 Mm-hmm and, and these kinds of things. So when I encountered the Dharma and there was so many teachings about this, you know, that really spoke to my heart and, and I knew that I had to change. Yeah. So, and I also knew that if I, uh, stayed in the same situation, uh, with my career and my social life and everything, uh, that it would be very difficult to really change. Yeah. Cause I have too much attachment mm-hmm and I would just follow my attachment everywhere. So that, that was, uh, part of the decision to Orain too. Mm-hmm yeah. Thank of course when, when I told my parents that was another story. Woo. You know,
Speaker 1 00:15:53 I can imagine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 Yeah. They weren’t very happy. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:15:57 mm-hmm well, thank you so much for sharing all your background. I mean, your, that part of, of your life. At least somehow it, it really resonates, uh, with me what I have been experiencing, I guess, in the last years of my life, even though in different ways, uh, I mean, I was raised in Peru, in Lima, Peru, I was raised Catholic, but also didn’t resonate at all with the way the teachings were taught at the time. Very, all of the dogma and youas believer why you’ll be punished. And all of these things, I started to develop some aversion towards spirituality in general, and some years ago, six, seven years ago, after pursuing, let’s say a material life let’s call it that way. I stumble upon meditation. And also I think it started changing in similar ways. Uh, maybe not as deep, but in similar ways that you talk right now.
Speaker 1 00:16:57 So it’s, it’s very interesting. And I guess something that I can, uh, also see that both our journeys have in common is the question of what’s the purpose of my life and always, and not taking it loosely. Right. Uh, always question it and sort of try to shape your activities and your relationships to around that question and not just do stuff for the sake of doing stuff. Um, yeah. Which is very interesting. I’m wondering, uh, at many points you were asking that question and you realized that what you were doing, wasn’t the purpose, right? Like let’s say climbing up, uh, the corporate ladder or following your parents’ path or whatever it, that wasn’t the purpose of your life. So what would you say today is the purpose of your life?
Speaker 2 00:17:48 Oh, um, develop Bodi. CHTA realize emptiness progress on the path to Buddhahood Uhhuh and on and on the way, uh, benefit as many people as I can, however I can.
Speaker 1 00:18:03 Right.
Speaker 2 00:18:03 Yeah. You know, mm-hmm and not harm them. Yeah. So I would say, yeah, that’s that’s now mm-hmm, the purpose. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:18:10 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. This is sort of a very specific question, but I think this is something I have still traveled to not believe, but completely given to it’s the idea of rebirth, maybe it’s because I’m still in a early stage of my journey, but mm-hmm , I haven’t experienced it, you know, maybe in a way as deep as you have. So right now my understanding of it is more, is more, mostly intellectual. Let’s say, I wonder if that changes at some point and it stops being a belief or something that makes sense sort of, and it’s something that you can actually through your own experience confirm. Um, yeah. That’s that’s my question. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 Okay. Well, I can’t remember my previous lives. Okay. Mm-hmm so that kind of confirmation I’m, I’m not able to give what, um, it, for me, it was the idea of rebirth and especially karma. It made sense of my life. Okay. Because if it were just this life and after you died, there was nothing, which is basically what I believed in college. After I gave up religion. Mm-hmm was, um, you know, if it’s just this life and then there’s nothing afterwards, then nothing really makes sense at all. Yeah. Then it’s just, oh, have as much pleasure as you possibly can. And don’t worry about hurting anybody else because, uh, nothing’s gonna happen to you unless by accident, you get arrested for doing something, but as long as you can work it so that other people don’t find out what you’re doing. And as long as it’s not too bad, then you know, you just work for your own pleasure and the pleasure of your own family and friends. But that, you know, it didn’t seem real meaningful to me. Hmm. It’s like, okay, because we all experienced some happiness now, but you know, I just ate a good lunch and that made me feel good. But where’s that happiness that I spent an hour ago.
Speaker 2 00:20:40 I experienced an hour ago. It’s not here. Mm-hmm . And most of the things we work for in our life and things that we quarrel with other people over, I think we should do this and you think should do that. And I think we should do it this way. And you think it should be done that way. All those quarrels, even world, even if I got my way. And I thought that made me happy, the, the pleasure was always very, very short and it’s only my pleasure. And so me feeling pleasure for a short time, because I got what I wanted. How does that, what is meaningful for the world in, in terms of that, you know, it’s like you eat some chocolate and the chocolate’s done and then yeah. So yeah, yeah. You ate some chocolate it’s over. It’s done now.
Speaker 2 00:21:52 And then, you know, you have to just keep it with something else that searching for whatever else you think is gonna give you pleasure. And in terms of the, you know, helping society, none of that really made sense to me. Mm-hmm yeah. And then especially if you die yeah. And then you die and okay. And then there’s nothing. So when I heard about rebirth and the idea of our actions that we do today, uh, creating the causes for what we experience in the future, that was something that woke me up because it was like, oh, you know, I’m, instead of blaming the world for my problems, I’m the one who creates the principle cause for my problems mm-hmm . And so if I don’t want those kind of results in the future, I’ve gotta, you know, shape up right now. Mm-hmm and, and correct the way I’m thinking and acting mm-hmm and also how, uh, karma and rebirth made sense in my life is I had always wondered, you know, why was I born me? Why was I born to this family? Hmm. Yeah. Why was I born with the interests that I have?
Speaker 2 00:23:17 And then especially when I met, uh, Buddhism, it’s like, why was Buddhism attractive to me? Yeah. I was raised another religion. Most people stick with the religion they were raised with how come that never resonated with me, but Buddhism did. Hmm. What’s going on? You know, mm-hmm, , it’s these kind of questions. But when you talk about karma and, uh, seeds and imprints in our mind, then it begins to make sense. You know, because if you look at, at so many of us who grew up, uh, in any religion, but Buddhist, then, uh, you know, how come so many people now coming from different cultures and religions are attracted to the Buddha DMA, you know? And the only way that I can really explain that is by saying, well, in previous lives, we had some contact with the Dharma. So what we call the seeds, you know, imprint was made on our mind.
Speaker 2 00:24:33 And so then in this life, when we meet certain circumstances, then that imprint ripens. And, oh, we, we meet a teacher, we read a book, whatever it is, and, and we’re interested and we wanna learn more. And then, you know, we become Buddhist. Uh, you know, there’s nothing in my present life that would account for that happening to me. Yeah. I don’t know about you, but, but for me, I mean, cuz my parents, when I, I said I was becoming a Buddhist and I wanna become a Nu, it was like, huh, why would you wanna do that? Yeah. And my mother was very clear in my genealogy. There are no Buddhist, not a one. Okay. So genealogically, you know, the nature part of it, Uhuh, it’s not because of heredity, family, background, chromosomes, brain, anything like that. Cuz there’s none of that in my background then nurture. So that’s the nature part then the nurture part. Well, you know, I grew up in America. I didn’t know any Buddhist.
Speaker 2 00:25:55 Yeah. I was not exposed to it. I was taught many other different things. So that the nature, the nurture part, none of it was leading me to Buddhism. It was all leading me towards another kind of life, but I turned to Buddhism. So why, yeah. It’s not nature. It’s not nurture. Yeah. What do you explain it previous? It must be something in previous lives and that goes for all of us. Mm-hmm yeah. All of us, some kind of contact. I don’t know what it was, but some kind of positive mm-hmm so that this life we’re interested. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:26:47
Speaker 2 00:26:47 Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:26:49 Thanks. Yeah. That’s that’s very interesting. It’s especially, well, I mean, I can talk more about, I guess, the consistent conditions from actions in this life. Uh, this that’s very clear to me and Buddism, and in general, I guess the spiritual path seems to be great at pointing those, those things out. Um, yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that. Moving on. Um, I would like to talk a little bit about your teachers and I guess I I’m curious on how you found your teachers and also maybe advice you would give to practitioners who may want to find a teacher or maybe who don’t know if they need a teacher or not. Yeah. Who would love to hear your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 00:27:41 Yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, I think having a teacher is very important. I mean, if we need a teacher to learn how to drive and to learn how to type, we certainly need a teacher to deal with our mind, which is a much more complicated thing than driving and typing okay. So that’s important. And uh, nowadays, one thing that concerns me is that, uh, on one hand doing Dharma teachings and everything online is wonderful because then so many people who don’t have access to a teacher can, can meet and hear the, the teachings. On the other hand, I think it’s really important to have, uh, someone that, you know, in per, in person. Yeah. That somebody who’s not just a figure on the screen. Yeah. So, uh, so the, that fact that so much is streamed. Then some people say, well, if I’ve watched the teachings at home, I can keep my pajamas on.
Speaker 2 00:28:51 I can drink a cup of coffee. I can put my feet up on the table. Uh, when the teaching is boring, I can get up and walk and, and get a snack. You know, if I’m at a D center or if I go to the Mo a monastery, I can’t act like that. So it’s just nicer at home. Yeah. Uh, and I don’t think they really get the benefit from the Dharma because there’s something very special that happens when you’re with a living person in real time and with a community, uh, you know, other people there who are also learning and questioning in the same way you are. Okay. Uh, now in, in terms of me how I met my teachers, first of all, when I met the Dharma, when I saw this flyer about a meditation course, I knew nothing. I didn’t know that Buddhism and Hinduism what the difference was between them. I didn’t know the types of Buddhism or the types of Tibetan, Buddhism. I didn’t know anything. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:30:07 Um, but what I did know after this first course, which lasted three weeks, was that what these people said made sense. Yeah. yeah. I didn’t know the categories. I didn’t know the, any of that. All I knew was that what they said made sense and it helped me. And so I just kept going back. I went back to the same teachers again and again and again, I never went and said, will you be my teacher? Can I be your student? I didn’t even know you did that. I just kept showing up. And, uh, and so I think I was actually quite fortunate because the, you know, aside for the two or three, one talk things I had done before I met the Dharma, uh, you know, the first teachers I met became my teachers. And, uh, you know, I never went around to other groups, other teachers or anything nowadays it’s, it’s, you know, most people are, uh, you know, they’re like, cuz there there’s a lot you can choose from now.
Speaker 2 00:31:26 Yeah. I, I had no, no, uh, you know, it wasn’t that I was just that I was just, I wasn’t just satisfied. I didn’t wanna even look for anything else because I just knew this helped me. But now it’s like, oh, people go here and they go there and they go here and they go there and then you get together with your friends and you all talk about, you know, this teacher and that teacher and this one’s far out and that one’s far out and this is what the community’s like and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And inside you have your own consumer checklist, you know? Yeah. Okay. Oh, well, this teacher has a sense of humor. That’s a point in there, you know? Uh, but they’re Dharma center charges a lot and I can’t afford that. That’s a negative thing. Um, you know, and we have our own little checklist of what we like and what we don’t.
Speaker 2 00:32:24 And uh, and, and so you use, use hear something at one teaching, you know, you go to one teacher and you hear one talk and they’re talking about the disadvantages of anger and you get really mad. Like why are they talking about the disadvantages of anger? I think anger is good. And I have a lot problem with anger, but it’s not a problem because it helps me, gives me energy to counteract social and injustice, you know? So, you know, you hear one teaching that you don’t like, or you don’t understand so well as like pooey and you go onto the next one. Okay. Oh, this one, this one is Z gen. They tell me that is the high as teaching. Well, I am a very special spiritual seeker. So I wanna go directly to the highest teaching. Of course other groups say that isn’t the highest teaching, but Islam is very charismatic, you know?
Speaker 2 00:33:32 And so I, I wanna go and because I’m also quite a distinguished, uh, Dartmouth student. Yeah. So I’ll go listen to them for a while. And then they, you hear them about zap Chan and then you say, well, well, that’s nice, but what about Teva? Buddhism? Yeah, when I was at the zoo chin course, I met somebody who was studying with . So and so, uh, in Thailand, uh, I should go try that one too. Yeah. And so people it’s like, um, in America we have this ice cream shop called 31 flavors. Okay. So it’s like going to 31 flavors, you taste a little bit of everything. Yeah. And then, uh, you know, some people say, oh, well, I’ll, I’ll take some of this, I’ll take some of that. And I don’t have to even leave it all Buddhism. I like this part in Hinduism and I’ll take a little sophism and a little bit about crystals and something about herbal medicine and something about, uh, you know, the, um, yeah. All this mystical stuff and, and, uh, put it all together. And that’s my spiritual path. Yeah. And Lama, yes. She used to say, you’re making soup.
Speaker 2 00:35:08 Like you’re taking potatoes and celery and carrots and putting it all in one pot. Yeah. And you know, from a, a Buddhist viewpoint, you know, you are free to go wherever you want, study whatever you want. But if you really wanna make practice, you have to, you know, you have to commit and it’s not even that you have to commit. You just like happened to me. You know, it’s like, this is what makes sense. So I’m just going with it. Nobody made me commit. Nobody said, oh, you have to commit. And who’s your teacher and what’s your tradition. It was just like, yeah, I’m, I’m going back. And then my teachers, I studied with them. Then they also, uh, told me to go study with their teachers and with some of their Dharma friends who were also Dharma teachers. So on the basis of these initial teachers, then I, I met some other teachers too that I studied with. And, uh, and I was incredibly fortunate because my teachers were all really, uh, good teachers. They were ethical human beings and they knew the teachings well, and they had practiced them and had personal experience. Mm-hmm mm-hmm and they were very kind and compassionate.
Speaker 1 00:36:41 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:36:42 Yeah. Yeah. So I, I never did the, the window shopping and, uh, te that’s stuff. Oh, that’s I was just lucky.
Speaker 1 00:36:51 That’s great. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s being like you, for sure. Especially, well, I mean, nowadays, as you mentioned, we have so many teachers out there it’s hard also, if you’re a beginner and you don’t really know what you’re filtering with, but yeah. There are some teachers out there that may not be where they think they are, or may not, not know how to teach even that, uh, that well mm-hmm so there’s some filtration needed at that point. And then this is one more potential filtering, but some people may not be ready to listen to certain teacher in the way they speak for the no personality patterns or preferences or whatever is there. So mm-hmm, , I mean, I, I would think it’s valid to go to another teacher and maybe go back when you’re ready. Mm-hmm yeah. Or something like that, but yeah. Uh, I think, yeah, it’s it’s well, I I’m really glad that you were lucky to have great teachers, uh, in your path.
Speaker 2 00:37:53 Yeah. I was very lucky. So I’m not saying that everybody needs to stick with the first teacher. They have mm-hmm cause like you say, sometimes you go to different teachers or, or groups and it’s like, this does not feel right. Hmm. Yeah. Because you, you meet the people in the group and you know, if I become a student of this teacher, I’m gonna become like those people , they’re not actually my role model , you know, that’s right. So, you know, sometimes if you don’t meet a teacher who, whose teachings really touch your heart or a group that, that you feel, and then you have to, you know, go to another teacher, another group and whatever. So I’m not knocking that for some people it’s really important, you know, and it’s necessary. Mm-hmm, some people find, uh, a very good teacher, but then they build on that mm-hmm and they find another good teacher too. They don’t abandon the first one. They just add on the second, third and however many
Speaker 1 00:38:58 That’s interesting. Yeah. So there’s no need to commit to only one, right?
Speaker 2 00:39:03 No, mm-hmm no, you, you usually have, what’s called a root teacher who is often the one who first really touched your heart. Mm. Uh, it’s often that person, but it doesn’t have to be mm-hmm . Yeah. Because sometimes it’s somebody that you meet a little bit later who, uh, yeah. The way they teach or, or how they teach or what they teach something, you goes into your heart in a way that it doesn’t with other people mm-hmm mm-hmm but then on top of that, you can still have other teachers mm-hmm uh, okay. But, and I should mention that the, the, um, my scriptures and the Teva scriptures too, they, uh, talk about the qualities to look for in a teacher. And so I think that’s important for people to learn, like, what are the qualities of a reliable teacher who can guide you?
Speaker 2 00:40:07 You know, because we come from a culture where everybody falls in love with sports stars and movie stars. Yeah. And so then if, you know, and we be in our culture, people become groupies. So then if we come from that culture and we don’t know what kind of qualities a good spiritual mentor should have, then we just look, oh, who’s the best looking, who jokes. Yeah. Who, who has the most students following after them, who is the most charismatic? And we make our own up our own criteria that aren’t that. And none of those are the criteria that the masters say to look for. You know, none of them is a, a teacher whose charismatic, who makes you laugh, who, um, you know, is an entertainer. And by the, and by the side has sex with their students know, you know, we have to use our wisdom right around this kind of thing. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:41:20 yeah, totally. It’s. As I mentioned, it seems like it’s especially hard for beginners who are starting to discover their own wisdom, but at a very early stage. So their side of, you know, yeah. I I’m, I still don’t know the answer, like the advice, but I think looking up for like qualities that are in scriptures, I think that’s, that’s probably a good way to start mm-hmm for sure.
Speaker 2 00:41:47 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:41:48 So we’ve been talking about your, your teachers and getting a teacher for a while. I’m wondering, at what point you sort of bridge the path from student to teacher? Uh, I know that you are, well, you started Shasti a while ago. Uh mm-hmm so I have two questions, I think first I’m wondering what was your motivation and your vision for Shasti Ivy and also, uh, how you transition into this teacher role?
Speaker 2 00:42:21 Okay. Um, well, first of all, I didn’t bridge from student to teacher. Okay. Because the way I think is until you reach full awakening, you are a student, you know, no matter what, how high you are on the path, you’re always a student until your realization is that of a fully awakened being. Okay. So, uh, I think that’s quite important. So for me, I feel like I, uh, I never aspired to be a teacher. And I mean, I was a teacher in lay life, you know, , I was a, you know, I taught little kids, but I never as aspired to be a Buddhist teacher. And I’m a little, I, I get concerned sometimes when there are people who are very, very beginning who say, oh, I wanna learn Buddhism so I can become a teacher. Oh, wait a minute. Uh, you don’t wanna learn Buddhism a as a student so that you can, uh, develop a heart of loving kindness towards others.
Speaker 2 00:43:37 Uh, you’re not looking to, uh, subdue your anger and your attachment. You know, you are seeing Buddhism, uh, as a career choice where you can become a teacher and then you have a job and a title, that kind of thing. I’m I do not recommend okay. My own experience with it is, like I said, I, I didn’t have any idea that I would, um, uh, be in that role, my teacher one time, uh, early on they, they had a, a month long course, every, uh, November. And they would always have one of the students be there as an assistant who led meditations and gave some talks and things like that. They were the teachers of the course mm-hmm . So one year I was asked to do that and I went to my teacher and I said, I’m a beginner. I can’t be in that position and, and help in the course, in that way. And my teacher looked at me and he said, you are selfish.
Speaker 2 00:45:03 Okay. Lama, what do you want me to do? you know, , uh, he said you don’t have to be an expert. Just what you do know, you share with other people. That’s all. Yeah. So, you know, and then what, uh, so like time went on, life, went on and then I was, uh, in a DMA center in Italy and one of the speakers got ill and couldn’t, uh, give the seminar over the weekend. So, uh, they asked me to do it. And I, what you want me to teach the seminar with all these people? Well, yes. You know, you’re the one who’s been ordained the longest. I’ve only been ordained a year and a half or two years. I don’t know anything. Well, you’ll learn, go do it. so, okay. That was the first time I started giving talks. And, and so then people started asking and, you know, uh, because of what my teacher said, I, I would accept when I could. Um, and for many years I just didn’t. I was like, why am I, I have no qualifications, why am I doing this? Giving Dharma talks? You know, these people should listen to my teachers, not to me. Uh, but every time I went to my teachers and said, I wanna do long retreat so that I can really get some more experience of the Dharma. Uh, all, all of my teachers, whoever I asked would look and they would say, oh, that’s nice. You wanna go on retreat, go teach.
Speaker 2 00:47:02 They all told me to teach. Okay. I don’t want to, but you know, you, you trust your teachers. So, okay. So for a long time, I spent like, just like, why am I doing this? I don’t understand. And it took me many years to really, um, see how being in the role of a teacher, not being a teacher, being in the role of a teacher, how it ha helped my own Dharma practice and how it made me grow up in some very important ways. And, and it also taught me that I could do something that was beneficial to others. You know, I’m teaching the Buddhist teachings, but that benefits people. So, you know, it’s like, oh, I need to give myself some credit for that. Yeah. And so after that, then I be, I began to feel, uh, more comfortable in that role.
Speaker 1 00:48:14 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:48:15 yeah, but still I’m basically a student
Speaker 1 00:48:19 Mm-hmm mm-hmm , that’s, that’s, that’s great to hear. Uh, it seems that, uh, when the, uh, one, for people who want to teach one of the most important things is that the motivation comes from the sense of body. Cheeta more than the sense of me teaching others. Right?
Speaker 2 00:48:37 Yep.
Speaker 1 00:48:38 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:48:40 Yep.
Speaker 1 00:48:40 But it’s, I mean, I’ve thought about it sometimes. Uh, but then I, I, I also think to think the same thing that you thought that, uh, which is, I mean, the teachers, let’s say my teachers do a much better job and can help others in much better ways than I could. I mean, I’m, I’m, let’s say just starting. So why, why would I, um,
Speaker 2 00:49:07 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:49:08 But that’s what I was asking myself too. Mm-hmm . Yeah. But, but maybe there’s some kind of karma connection we don’t know. So we go and we just do what we can and see what happens. Yeah. The, what what’s very interesting is though, is when you first learn Buddhism, usually we’re not so proud because we of, because we don’t know anything yeah. You know, we don’t know what, what Buddha Darman Sangar we don’t know what karma is. We don’t know anything. So we’re not proud at that stage. Okay. It’s when we, uh, have studied in practice for a few years. Yeah. Then we start thinking, oh, well, I’ve been to many courses, I’ve done many retreats and that’s when pride can come. And, and that point, um, uh, is where you have to be very careful. Yeah. Because if it’s motivated by pride, if it’s motivated by seeking, uh, other people wanting other people to appreciate you wanting them to praise you, wanting to be well known. Yeah. Uh, these kind of worldly motivations very easily creep in. Yeah. So we have to be very, very careful.
Speaker 1 00:50:42 That makes sense. That’s great advice. Thank you. Uh, and then moving on Shasti um, how did you decide to, to found it, um, what was your, your idea at that point?
Speaker 2 00:50:55 Whoa, well, when I ordained there weren’t really any monasteries where Westerners could live. Um, we stayed at Coon, it was a monastery for the young, uh, Sherpa boys. Um, but you know, we had visa problems and all of that. So for many years, I mean, my life was just kind of go from this place to that place. My teacher always directed it and, or my teacher would send me to one Dharma center or another to work. And so I would study with, uh, whichever teacher was there. Uh, so I was, you know, moving around a lot under my teacher’s guidance. Um, I had very little money, you know, I mean, extremely little money, like being in India, not having enough to, uh, get back to the west, uh, show had problems with that. Then we had so many visa problems yeah. In Asia constant visa problems.
Speaker 2 00:52:12 So at, in 19 82, 1 of my teachers started a monastery in France. And so I went there and I really loved living with other monastics like that. Uh, but again, uh, we all got transferred out to go to other places , but I felt, and it was, so it was really difficult in the early years between not having money, not getting sick in Asia language problems, you know, not having a stable place to live. Some people had money from their family or whatever. Some of us didn’t have anything. So it was very difficult. So I, I always had the feeling like, you know, wait a minute that this isn’t the way ordained people should live. I mean, the Buddha set it up as a community and, uh, and you know, the Tibetans are supported more or less by their, the, the monasteries they’re in. Uh, and yet we Westerners are floating around.
Speaker 2 00:53:26 And when you float around like that, you can’t really stay in one place and study deeply and, you know, have a consistent practice. So those initial years where I was like traveling a lot, I look back and I think they were very helpful to me, but I also saw many people, uh, disrobe, because it, the, the, you know, you’re just moving around. You don’t have a base and, and you don’t have any money and , you have to pay for your own food and what do you do? And so that kind of stuff. Uh, so yeah, so I really wanted to set up a place where monastics could stay and know they had a home where they didn’t have to pay and also where, uh, they could receive teachings and practice and where a monastery could be, um, kind of a beacon for society, you know, cuz it makes people think, yeah, if you a monastery and people live a simple life, people start thinking, Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:54:43 You know, they don’t have a lot of stuff, but they’re happy. How come I, I think I need all this stuff. Okay. So there’s many ways I think where, uh, being, you know, monastic life and monasteries really contribute to society and to, to the benefit of individuals in society. Uh, but I didn’t initially kind of think that I could do it. You know, I thought I had to have permission for my teacher anyway, I didn’t have any money so, you know, how was this going to happen? Um, I don’t like fundraising. I think fundraising warps the mind. So I did not wanna do that. Um, but very much I had this feeling like if, uh, Buddhism is going to spread in the west, we need monasteries and we need people who ordained as Mon, as monastics and monastics have to live a different lifestyle. You know, you can’t go to work every day in a regular job and keep your precepts. Yeah. It just doesn’t work. So, um, yeah, so I wanted to do it for many years, but the, uh, it took a while for the causes and conditions to come together. Yeah. Other, yeah. Uh, but when they did, then I thought, okay, well let’s try.
Speaker 2 00:56:23 And uh, that’s how the AEY was started.
Speaker 1 00:56:27 That’s amazing. Really inspiring. I, I really want to visit soon. Uh it’s in, well, it’s in Washington. Um, yeah. I’m in Washington state. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:56:37 Yeah. You can get here very easily.
Speaker 1 00:56:40 So yeah. Well I do. Yeah. I’m pretty close. Uh, I will definitely encount soon. Um, how does a day in the monastery looks like, uh, more or less, you know, roughly.
Speaker 2 00:56:53 Okay. Um, we start with morning meditation at five 30. People get up 4 30, 5, 4 o’clock whenever they want to. But morning meditation starts at five 30. Uh, breakfast is at seven 30. Then we have a short, um, meeting. So the people, uh, whatever projects we’re gonna work on that day, we, we let other people know and also announcements are made. And if things need to be worked out, we figure them out. So that usually goes from like eight 15 to 8 30, 8 45. And then we have what is called offering service, uh, which other people call work, but we call it offering service because it changes your mind when you think I am offering my service to sent in to sentient beings, to the monastics. That’s totally different than our association with work. Okay. So we offer service, uh, until lunchtime, we have lunch at, at uh, 1230.
Speaker 2 00:58:12 We have a short Dharma talk before lunch and of course with breakfast and lunch, we all we do chanting and everything before we eat after lunch, we usually, uh, so lunch is at 1230 and then we have a 15 minute talk till 1245 about, um, then, uh, offering service starts again at two 30. We usually go until four o’clock and then at four o’clock there’s a study period. So from four o’clock to six o’clock, then people can study, uh, six o’clock there’s medicine meal. Some people eat in the evening, some people don’t. And then at seven o’clock evening meditation that goes to about eight, 15. So that’s the basic thing. But, uh, Tuesday and Thursday morning, we also have teachings Friday night. We have teachings, uh, up until recently we were having teachings on Saturday morning. We also have teachings, um, in the late afternoon on Tuesday and then we’ll have weekend courses. So the basic schedule, uh, has a lot of, uh, alternatives mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:59:34 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:59:35 yeah,
Speaker 1 00:59:36 That that’s awesome. That sounds sounds great. Uh, and is it mostly geared towards monastics or can lay practitioners also go for a period of time?
Speaker 2 00:59:47 Hmm. It it’s a monastery where we live is a monastery, but we invite lay practitioners. Yeah. So we have some courses and some retreats and uh, so people just write, they fill out an application and then, you know, we usually accept it and then they can come. Some people wanna come for a visit when we’re not having a course or a retreat, uh, and just take part in community life with us so people can come and do that. So we have, uh, leg guests a lot, you know, until COVID now people are starting to come back. We’re opening again. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 01:00:28 mm-hmm I see. And what’s your main method of teaching? Uh, I know, well, I correct me if I’m wrong, but I think, uh, your lineages, your lineage was mainly around the gayu, uh, lineage mm-hmm or gayu lineage, but I’m wondering if you teach strictly from that, or you sort of have made your own soup in order to teach or something later
Speaker 2 01:00:55 I try not to make soup. Okay. Um, yeah, because what I studied, I just kept going back to the same teachers and, uh, Jay son copper’s view really, uh, made sense to me, you know, it wasn’t at the beginning. Oh, I’m gonna go study JKO was like, okay, you’re teaching something. I’ll listen. And then later on I found out, oh, this is, you know, from this lineage. Um, but if I find, uh, something in the other Tibetan, the NIS that I find is, is really good. I mean, I’ve taught the forethoughts that change the mind, you know, and these kinds of things I’ve because actually most of the foundation practices, which are not just foundation, they’re quite, uh, when you get into them, there’s a lot there. Um, uh, they’re pretty similar, uh, in, in the, uh, four Tibetan traditions. It’s when you come to tantra that there’s different lineages so much in, for lineages coming from, uh, India.
Speaker 2 01:02:15 Yeah. But in the Suri teachings, they’re very, very similar. Um, so yeah, I’m, I’m fine with that. What is interesting though, is we have a, uh, a very strong, well, not very strong, a strong, uh, affiliation with Chinese Buddhism in the sense that in the Tibetan, uh, tradition, they, for monastics, they have the lineage for fully ordained monks for the monks to become fully ordained, but they only have the lineage for novice nuns. They don’t have the lineage for fully ordained nuns, but we want to become fully ordained because it’s very beneficial for your practice and, and for how you can benefit society. So we go to Taiwan, uh, because they have the lineage in, in Chinese culture and Vietnamese and Korean as well, uh, the lineage to be able to give the full ordination for women. So in terms of the Nia, uh, part of our practice, we rely on the, uh, the Chinese tradition. It’s they follow the DMA Gupta, Nia, whereas the Tibetans follow the mu Shava Nia. So, but our practice tradition is Tibetan. Our vena tradition is Dharma Gupta and, uh, there’s been no difficulty or, or problem with it at all. Yeah. We invite Batton gees to come here and teach. And, uh, also there’s Chinese, uh, nuns and monks who could come
Speaker 1 01:04:08 Mm-hmm . That’s awesome. Um,
Speaker 2 01:04:10 Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:04:11 I don’t know that much about those traditions, but I’m curious about what sort of the main categories of practice of the traditions are also from a practitioner practitioner point of view, how does the path looks like, you know, first you start, for example, writing sarava bud. Usually you start with San and then you do some mm-hmm . Right? Is, is there some similarity?
Speaker 2 01:04:39 Okay. Well actually, if, if you learned the traditions, well, you see that they all come from the Buddha and that you find many of the SA I mean, almost all of the same teachings, uh, in all these traditions, but how they’re taught or what the emphasis is, can be different. Okay. So, uh, for example, in Tibetan tradition, uh, yeah, we have teachings on and we practice Shama and VAPA, many people don’t know that they think, oh, VI PAA is this Buddhist tradition from Southeast Asia actually Vipasana is not a Buddhist tradition. It’s a, it’s a, uh, a, an approach to, um, it’s insight meditation. It’s the meditation you’ll see the nature of reality. So all the Buddhist traditions have that in one form or another, all of them have teachings on Shama. Yeah. Because these practices are ones that everybody does. Um, there’s teachings on love and compassion in all of the traditions, although the bohi Cheeta is taught in the MAANA traditions.
Speaker 2 01:06:04 Okay. But if you look, you know, the Buddha taught the eight, uh, the, um, three higher trainings of ethical conduct, concentration, and wisdom. These are found in all the Buddhist traditions. Again, sometimes they’re taught in different ways, but the main elements are there. There’s a book that is holiness, the Dai Lama. And I did together. It’s called Buddhism, um, one teacher, many traditions. And it will really help you understand this because, uh, you, you know, when you learn like that, you see that, oh, you start with the four measurables in one tradition, and then in the next tradition is Bo Chita. So that tradition is based on this one. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm, it’s not like they’re their worlds apart. Mm-hmm, , they’re very, very close.
Speaker 1 01:07:05 What would you say are the unique elements of Tibet bud? Then
Speaker 2 01:07:09 I, I would say that, uh, the emphasis on tantra is unique. Uh, they have tantra, the shin, um, Shinto, no, Shong Shong religion, a single, um, tradition in Japan is tantric there’s, uh, centuries ago. There was tantra in China, not so much now, although now people are interested in that. I would say also, um, how the, the Tibetans talk about the development of ODA, you know, how the, the, you know, this is in the Chinese tradition for sure, but it’s explained in a different way. So Tibet, the explanation in the Tibetan tradition, I think is, uh, yeah, quite is very well developed that, um, , you know, the, the way emptiness is explained, you know, in many ways, very similar to the other Buddhist traditions, but in some ways different, uh, you know, the Tibetans rely mostly on the, uh, Madama view. So that viewpoint, uh, is also found in China. It’s maybe not as widespread there, but you know, it has existed for centuries in Chinese Buddhism. Um, yeah. so, yeah, when people ask me about the differences, I, it always feels strange because I think we should talk about the similarities between traditions
Speaker 1 01:09:04 Mm-hmm . Yeah. So you, you won’t like the next question then, but this is the first difference that you mentioned, which is tantra or Arianna. Right. Again, I don’t know much about that. Uh, I know a little bit, uh, but would love to know more about it from, from yourself. Uh, what is tantra what’s its role in the path? I mean, I’m also thinking that if most or all Buddhi traditions, they aim to the same thing, right. To the same, let’s say to Tru nature. Why is the need for tantric practice or, well, yeah, what’s the need for tantric practice? Uh, yeah.
Speaker 2 01:09:49 I, I wouldn’t, uh, I would say that tantra has a very unique way of developing, um, Shama PAA. So, you know, it’s, it’s a unique way. Yeah. Uh, just like Chan and, and, uh, tin tie and, you know, they all have their unique ways. Um, you know, I could tell you the elements of, of tantra, but I personally think that people need a very good basis for Suri, uh, and should not just jump into tantra right away.
Speaker 1 01:10:39 And why is that?
Speaker 2 01:10:44 And tantra you’re doing you receive well, first of all, you receive many more precepts to keep. Yeah. And so, in terms of keeping precepts, we should go slowly, first you take the five precepts, get your life together, not to kill and steal and sleep around and lie and taking toxicants, which sounds easy, but many people can’t do it, you know? And then, so you take precepts gradually the, the tantric precepts are the most difficult to keep,
Speaker 1 01:11:19 Which are those
Speaker 2 01:11:19 Don’t, which it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. That’s not important. Okay. Uh, yeah. And so, yeah, so you, you build your practice in a gradual very, uh, organic way.
Speaker 1 01:11:38 Mm-hmm mm-hmm
Speaker 2 01:11:42 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:11:45 Okay. So last question of about a topic. I promise, let’s say, okay, you are practicing in a different tradition that doesn’t have a tantric path.
Speaker 2 01:11:56 Oh,
Speaker 1 01:11:56 That’s fine. And your practice, no problem is going well. Right. Is advancing, right.
Speaker 2 01:12:01 That’s fine.
Speaker 1 01:12:02 No need fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:12:06 What I mean, when you say need, what do you mean by need? No, you know, like you need it to become enlightened, but when you’re, you know, gazillion miles away from enlightenment, do you need, what, what people practice on the last step of enlight? You know, if you’re going from here to New York. Yeah. What do you need more the, the ride that, to know how to get from, from Seattle to Spokane, to Missoula, you need to learn I 90. Are you ready to learn the, you know, the bridges in New York yet? Yeah. Or in Chicago? I mean, no, you need to focus on, on where you’re at right now. Yeah. Cuz if you don’t focus where you’re at and you’re learning all the bridges in New York,
Speaker 1 01:13:10 Right.
Speaker 2 01:13:11 Is that gonna help you right now with your anger? Ignorance, anger and attachment?
Speaker 1 01:13:18 Probably not.
Speaker 2 01:13:19
Speaker 1 01:13:20
Speaker 2 01:13:21 No, you might get really puffed up. Oh, I know all the bridges in New York. Yeah. Do you know them? Oh, you don’t poor thing. you know? Okay. When, when you’re, um, in Pennsylvania. Okay. Mm-hmm then maybe you can start thinking more about new, you know, the bridges in New York. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 01:13:49 Mm-hmm yeah,
Speaker 2 01:13:50 I hear you. Or if, yeah, or even now you can study the bridges in New York and the highways in New York, but are you gonna drive them right now? No, you’re here.
Speaker 1 01:14:03 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 01:14:04 Yeah. You’re driving on I 90, you know, mm-hmm going east mm-hmm and you’re just trying to get to is Equa first
Speaker 1 01:14:18 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:14:20 Okay. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 01:14:22 So on the topic of this lifetime journey, right? Uh, such an amazing, but also complex journey. Um, I’m wondering, I mean, you’re a monastic who have been training for a while and devoting their life to this question, you know, uh, early on you said you still, you still are student. Right. Are there any hopes for lay, lay practitioners to get to the head of the path?
Speaker 2 01:14:56 I think it, you know, it depends so much on the individual. I can’t make a generalization about everybody cuz everybody’s coming in with different karma, with different dispositions, with different capabilities. I, I can’t make, uh, a general statement it’s said in the scriptures that lay people can attain awakening. So that’s good. Yeah. Yeah. Now the question really is are any of us going to attain awakening in this lifetime? Yeah. And they say you motivate for it, but don’t expect it. Yeah. Because for me anyway, the more I study, the more I practice, the more I realize, I don’t know anything. Yeah. So this is gonna take a while to become enlightened mm-hmm
Speaker 1 01:15:56 .
Speaker 2 01:15:57 Yeah, but what I’m happy about is that I met the path,
Speaker 1 01:16:01 Right?
Speaker 2 01:16:03 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:16:03 Mm-hmm I, I hear you. What would be, what a piece of advice that you give to lay practitioners listening to, to this,
Speaker 2 01:16:16 To lay practitioners, listening to this study, put it into practice, look deeply at the way, your own mind functions and apply the Dharma teachings to that so that you can begin to subdue the ignorance, anger and attachment don’t harm. Others benefit them as much as you can. Yeah. Learn about Bodhi Cheeta and, uh, and do those meditations as well as learn about emptiness and do those meditations and relax. Relax does not mean indulge your sense pleasures. It means enjoy your practice. Mm-hmm don’t say I’ve gotta be awakened by Tuesday. yeah.
Speaker 1 01:17:36 Thank you so much. Been okay. This has been, uh, a wonderful talk. Thank you so much for your time. Oh,
Speaker 2 01:17:43 Thank you so much. And Jess, so,
Speaker 1 01:17:47 Bye bye.
Speaker 2 01:17:49 Okay. Bye bye.
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